please explain Spell Pyramid limitations
#1
I recently viewed a question on the rules pyramid, but unfortunately the forum was locked in less than 4 days after the last post (when I first viewed it), so I’m starting this new one. There was a relevant section of the Spell Pyramid rule not included in the previous thread. All quotes are from the Underworld LARP Rulebook v5.4.9. In all cases below, any bolded text is my emphasis.

On pg 103, the rulebook lists the following concerning Spell Pyramids:

General Description: “A "Spell Pyramid" is the term used to describe the whole system of spell slots that a character purchases. There are rules governing in what order, and how many, spell slots a character can purchase at a given time. It's referred to as a "Pyramid" because looking at the diagram of spell slots a character has purchased, the base (low level spells) must always be larger or equal to the rest of the Spell Pyramid. Some rules follow:”

In this case, the rulebook uses “must.” It indicates that lower level spells must be equal or greater. It does not specify how much “greater” the lower level slots must be, nor place a limit on how much greater they can be.

First rule (bullet): “In order to open up a spell slot for purchase, a character must have already purchased two spell slots from the level below it. A second spell slot of the same level would require the character to have purchased three spell slots of the level below it. This pattern continues until they are 5 spell slots wide. The obvious exception to this rule is level 1 spell slots.”

This is straightforward. This describes how higher level spells become available. The rulebook uses the term “must.” In order to purchase a level 2 slot, you “must” have 2 level 1 slots. In order to purchase a level 7, you “must” have 2 level 6 slots, 3 level 5 slots, 4 level 4 slots, and 5 of level 1-3. It does not indicate that you must purchase the higher tier slots when they become available, only that you “must” have more lower level slots then the level above.

Second rule (bullet): “You may not exceed 5 spells slots wide, on any circle (level) until your entire pyramid is full. This means 5 spell slots wide up to your 9th circle.”

Also straightforward. The term “may not” is used.

Third rule (bullet): “Once you have a column pyramid of 5 wide and 9th circle high, you may expand outwards to a maximum of 10 wide. You may ignore the need to build in a pyramid but must still purchase the lower circle spell slot in order to purchase a spell slot from the circle above it. You may never have a higher number of circle spell slots then you do lower circle spell slots. Example: you may have eight 1 level spells or seven 1st level spells and seven 2nd level spells, but you may not have seven 1 level spells and eight 2nd level spells.”

This third rule applies to spells past 5 slots and means you can ignore the pyramid - the general description and first rule of the pyramid indicates that you must have more lower level slots in order to purchase higher level and a maximum of 5 slots; this rule eliminates that requirement.

Combining rule 2 and 3 indicates that you cannot purchase a 6th level 1 slot until 5 level 9 slots have been purchased. This is the only location where the rulebook specifying that more lower level spells cannot be purchased until a quota of higher level spells have been taken.


The relevant rule missing shows up on page 104. The rulebook presents chart 8.1, which it describes as “Example of a Typical Spell Pyramid:”

Below the pyramid is the line:

“This chart demonstrates the typical path a mage takes when purchasing spell slots, going from their 1st spell slot purchase until their 45th.”

The rulebook uses the word “typical,” which means standard, but not 'required.' This implies that there are alternate pathways along the pyramid. For the previous rules, the book indicated “must” and “may not.” These are absolute, and the language change is important. If the “typical” pyramid was required to be followed, then the rulebook would indicate that you “must” purchase in that order.

In no case does the rulebook indicate that within the first 5 spell slots (Pyramid) that you must purchase the higher level spells in order to purchase the lower level ones or that lower tier slots may not be expanded faster than higher spell slots that are available. The rulebook only states that you must purchase more lower level ones than higher level ones.

Ergo, there is no restriction stated in the rulebook to disallow:

5 level 1 slots
5 level 1 slots, 2 level 2 slots, 1 level 3 slot
5 level 1 slots, 5 level 2 slots, 3 level 3 slots, 2 level 4 slots
4 level 1 slots, 3 level 2 slots, 2 level 3 slots, 1 level 4 slot
2 level 1 slots, 1 level 2 slot
10 level 1 slots, 5 level 2-9 slots
8 level 1 slots, 8 level 2 slots, 6 level 3 slots, 6 level 4 slots, 5 level 5-9 slots

In all cases, they conform to all of the rules:
General description (more lower level spells than higher level ones)
Rule 1 (2 spells of lower level before next higher levels are available, and at least 1 more lower level spell then higher level, up to a max of 5)
Rule 2 (does not exceed 5 slots wide until 5 level 9 slots)
Rule 3 (in order to purchase more than 5 slots, up to a maximum of 10 slots, you must have 5 level 9)

The following are examples of incorrect pyramids because they violate rules

2 level 1 slots, 2 level 2 slots (violate rule 1: “A second spell slot of the same level would require the character to have purchased three spell slots of the level below it.”)
6 level 1 slots (violate rule 2: “you may not exceed 5 slots wide, on any circle (level) until your entire pyramid is full”)
5 level 1 slots, 7 level 2 slots, 5 level 3-9 slots (violate rule 3: “You may never have a higher number of circle spell slots then you do lower circle spell slots.”)

If there is something I missed stating that within the first 5 slots, you must purchase all higher level spells lots available before more lower levels can be purchased, please correct me. I will admit ignorance of previous versions of the rulebook; it may have been a requirement then, but I do not see it listed here.
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#2
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying the DB doesn't match the rulebook? Are you proposing that the system be re-written? The database won't allow you to do something that's not possible via the rules. There's no question in any of that text.
Edward Watt
Underworld LARP Canada - Co-Founder
Guild Jericho : General Manager
Email: comments@larp.ca
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#3
(10-20-2015, 07:48 PM)Arkayne Wrote: I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying the DB doesn't match the rulebook? Are you proposing that the system be re-written? The database won't allow you to do something that's not possible via the rules. There's no question in any of that text.

My question isn't with the Database.  I'm pointing out that the Pyramid given is an "example of a typical pyramid" and doesn't say it "must" follow the diagram; my question is where it states that you can't take more lower level spells (like 5 level 1s and 5 level 2's before you take a level 3) before you take higher level ones.  I see where it says you can't take higher level ones, but not the other way around
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#4
My previous post is still relevant. If you have a question I don't understand it.

"my question is where it states that you can't take more lower level spells (like 5 level 1s and 5 level 2's before you take a level 3) before you take higher level ones"

That's not a question. If you have suggestions for rule changes please send it to comments@larp.ca. If you've found an editing mistake or something that's unclear in the rulebook, you can send it to the same email and I'll pass it on to the editor. Please use this forum for questions only.
Edward Watt
Underworld LARP Canada - Co-Founder
Guild Jericho : General Manager
Email: comments@larp.ca
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#5
(10-21-2015, 05:41 AM)Arkayne Wrote: My previous post is still relevant. If you have a question I don't understand it.

"my question is where it states that you can't take more lower level spells (like 5 level 1s and 5 level 2's before you take a level 3) before you take higher level ones"

That's not a question. If you have suggestions for rule changes please send it to comments@larp.ca. If you've found an editing mistake or something that's unclear in the rulebook, you can send it to the same email and I'll pass it on to the editor. Please use this forum for questions only.

Let me rephrase: where in the rulebook does it state you must take all available higher level spells before you can take more lower levels spells (for first 5 slots wide)?

This isn't a suggestion for a rules change.
This isn't pointing out an error in editing. 

When people as questions based on written rules, they also want to understand *why* something is determined.  Where they can find it.  How is it justified?  If their interpretation of a rule is different then the official one, why?

The English language is very specific as to meaning.  The change in language may be different from a previous version of the rules, one which specified that a specific order "must" be followed when purchasing spell slots, but the previous interpretation has remained.  I'm asking where, under the currently published ruleset, does this restriction come from.

I've quoted the relevant sections of rules above: why must I purchase higher level spell slots before purchasing all of my lower level spell slots (up to a maximum of 5 wide)?  Where in the rulebook does it state this?
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#6
(10-21-2015, 04:06 PM)reyyvin Wrote: why must I purchase higher level spell slots before purchasing all of my lower level spell slots (up to a maximum of 5 wide)?

Power balance.

(10-21-2015, 04:06 PM)reyyvin Wrote: Where in the rulebook does it state this?

"In order to open up a spell slot for purchase, a character must have already purchased two spell slots from the level below it. "
Edward Watt
Underworld LARP Canada - Co-Founder
Guild Jericho : General Manager
Email: comments@larp.ca
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#7
(10-21-2015, 05:56 PM)Arkayne Wrote: "In order to open up a spell slot for purchase, a character must have already purchased two spell slots from the level below it. "

Yes.  That is for higher level slots.  To open a level 2 slot, you must have purchased 2 level 1 slots.  The question isn't about higher level slots - that is spelled out specifically and is not in dispute.  The question is regarding lower level spell slots.
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#8
(10-21-2015, 06:27 PM)reyyvin Wrote:
(10-21-2015, 05:56 PM)Arkayne Wrote: "In order to open up a spell slot for purchase, a character must have already purchased two spell slots from the level below it. "

Yes.  That is for higher level slots.  To open a level 2 slot, you must have purchased 2 level 1 slots.  The question isn't about higher level slots - that is spelled out specifically and is not in dispute.  The question is regarding lower level spell slots.

This has been answered a number of times already, including the previous thread on the subject in this forum and the 42 reply thread you created on Facebook.

The reason we require it is due to power balance. A character with 20 1st level spells (200 cp) is far more powerful than a character with 4 9th level spells (200 cp).
Edward Watt
Underworld LARP Canada - Co-Founder
Guild Jericho : General Manager
Email: comments@larp.ca
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#9
(10-21-2015, 07:05 PM)Arkayne Wrote:
(10-21-2015, 06:27 PM)reyyvin Wrote:
(10-21-2015, 05:56 PM)Arkayne Wrote: "In order to open up a spell slot for purchase, a character must have already purchased two spell slots from the level below it. "

Yes.  That is for higher level slots.  To open a level 2 slot, you must have purchased 2 level 1 slots.  The question isn't about higher level slots - that is spelled out specifically and is not in dispute.  The question is regarding lower level spell slots.

This has been answered a number of times already, including the previous thread on the subject in this forum and the 42 reply thread you created on Facebook.

The reason we require it is due to power balance. A character with 20 1st level spells (200 cp) is far more powerful than a character with 4 9th level spells (200 cp).

I haven't posted to facebook asking about spells.  By my IP, you'll see I'm a new player.  Please check your facts, which is what I've been asking since I started this thread - don't make assumptions.


I'm not asking to have 20 first level spell slots; this clearly violates rule #2.  You brought this up in the previous thread - but that wasn't what either of us were asking aboutYou are intentionally adding false assumptions into our questions as a means of invalidating them, when we're both clearly asking about the first 5 spell slots.  I've stated this in every post - that my question specifically deals with 5 slots wide.

If you can find that 42 post thread, please send it to me, either a link here or IM.  Or on facebook (I'm on the Kalidor page - my real name is public).

The rules are specific about certain things.  They're specific about 5 slots wide (until all 9 levels are 5 slots wide).  They're specific about having more spell slots of lower level then higher level.  They're specific about rules governing slots 6-10. 

I'm asking what specifically prohibits it in the current rulebook.  If you've already posted that, please do so again; I didn't find it in the previous thread, nor in anything above.  I found an exaggerated statement about having "having 90 level 1 spells by level 10."  I found several responses that did not quote rules.  I found one response that quoted rule 3, which only deals with spell slots 6-10.  I found no responses that referred to chart 8-1 (Example of a Typical pyramid), nor any rule that when dealing with the first 5 spell slot, all available higher level slots must be filled before lower level slots.

Neither of us were asking about having more then 5 slots.  We weren't asking about 20 or 90 level 1 spells.  Please answer about the questions we ask - not crazy assumptions.
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#10
Must be coincidence that both threads were created within days of each other. Nobody is intentionally making false assumptions - it's that nobody can understand what either of you are asking. Multiple marshals from across every guild have now looked at this thread, the other thread and the Facebook thread and shrugged their shoulders at it. That's why nobody is responding to this thread. If you aren't clear with your questions you're going to get vague replies. No one is intentionally misleading you, they don't understand what it is you're saying. Part of the reason that you're being confused with that other player is because you're both hostile in your tone and aggressive in your replies.

I'd suggest reading the answers in this Facebook thread, perhaps you'll find the answer to whatever question it is you're asking.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Underworldjericho/permalink/10156161140530113/

Hope that helps.
Edward Watt
Underworld LARP Canada - Co-Founder
Guild Jericho : General Manager
Email: comments@larp.ca
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